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on this episode of skeptico alex talks

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with the neuroscientist dr mario

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beauregard about his new book

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brain wars

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there eventually will be another rev a

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big revolution in science

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and this will uh be about

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mind and consciousness and the same kind

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of

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revolution that they've had

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about 100 years ago in physics from

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classical physics to quantum physics

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at the same time in parallel of course

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like you said at the beginning of the

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interview if you talk to lay people

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to most people they do not believe that

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they are strictly biological robots that

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they don't have any influence over

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their brain activity or what's happening

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in the body and so on and so forth and

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so

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it won't be difficult uh if there's uh

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the the start of uh really a transition

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in science within science

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uh it will go uh

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quickly

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because the rest of the world um you

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know is very sympathetic regarding

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a non-materialist view of

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consciousness and of human life

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stay with us

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welcome to skeptica where we explore

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controversial science with leading

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researchers thinkers and their critics

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i'm your host alex sacaris and on this

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episode of skeptico we're going to talk

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to dr mario beauregard about his

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fascinating work in his very compelling

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book brain wars so on this show we've

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talked quite a bit about the end of

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materialism and the evidence for that

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which has been mounting and is pretty

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overwhelming at this point well here's a

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guy who's really pulled all that

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together in a way that really creates

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quite an overwhelmingly convincing case

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for anyone who dares to look

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here's my interview with dr mario

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beauregard

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skeptico

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dr beauregard is an associate research

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professor at the neuroscience research

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center at the university of montreal he

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has a phd in neuroscience also from the

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university of montreal and he also has

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two post-doctorate fellowships in

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experimental neuropsychology he's the

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author of over a hundred publications in

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neuroscience psychology and psychiatry

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and he's here today to talk about his

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latest book

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brain wars

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the scientific battle over the existence

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of the mind

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and proof that will change the way we

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live our lives

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mario thank you very much for joining me

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today on skeptico and welcome

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thanks to you

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so your book

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brain wars

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and this battle over over whether we are

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really just

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biological robots as our friend stephen

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hawking likes to say

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is a frequent topic on this show so i

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think you're going to find an audience

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who is well aware of a lot of the issues

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but you really do a great job of kind of

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presenting it in your book and pulling

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it all together

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can you tell us a little bit briefly

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well uh the the starting point is the uh

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what we call the the modern scientific

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uh world view so it's the

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the world view that is based on uh

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classical physics

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and this uh this view

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is based on a number of

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fundamental assumptions like materialism

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determinism

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reductionism also so applied to

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mind and brain it means that for

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instance

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um

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everything in the universe

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is only matter and energy therefore

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the brain is a physical object too

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and

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the mind can be reduced strictly to

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electrical and chemical processes

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in the brain

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uh it means also that

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everything is determined from a material

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or physical point of view so

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we don't have any uh freedom

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uh we're like biological robots uh

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totally determined by uh our neurons and

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our genes and so on and so forth

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and uh

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so we're reduced to material objects

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and we are determined by material

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processes so that's the what we call the

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modern uh

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scientific world view but uh right but

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dr dr beauregard is that really where

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science is at because i think that one

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of the problems that kind of the people

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on the street if you will folks that i

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talk to who are not engaged in this

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debate they kind of take a view of it

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kind of the way that a lot of folks in

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america and in north america treat uh

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catholicism or even christianity it's

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like yeah yeah yeah kinda but i don't

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really hold to all that uh do do most

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people really believe any of that and to

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what extent is that really the

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mainstream view within science

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well it it's the mainstream view

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i would see still in the biomedical

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field

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it is also uh in philosophy

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however in physics everything changed uh

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about 100 years ago so they've had their

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own revolution

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from classical physics to quantum

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physics and they de-materialize the

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world so the quantum physicist the

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founding fathers of quantum physics

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realized that

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you know the the world the universe is

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not constituted

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of a

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tiny

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physical particles

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like billiard balls for instance but the

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uh the they realize that um

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there's a very important

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mental component in the universe

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uh and this relates to the the so-called

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measurement problem or the observer

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effect so the

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the physicist and his

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instrument

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uh they are influencing to a certain

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extent the outcome of the experiment at

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the microphysical level

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uh whether they are measuring uh either

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particles or waves

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and so

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the the

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now it's uh recognized in quantum

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physics that you cannot explain uh the

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universe or to understand the universe

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without making reference to what we call

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mind and consciousness but

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in bio in the biomedical field uh

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including neuroscience it's a different

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ballgame uh

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most scientists in uh my field of

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research for instance are not aware of

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these uh

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they don't know very well quantum

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physics and they are not

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aware that there's been a revolution 100

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years ago regarding these uh fundamental

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issues

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and it's it's the same thing pretty much

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also in other fields like uh

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psychiatry for instance so it's uh we we

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find a lot of uh biological reductionism

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in psychiatry

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as uh especially with regard to uh

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the use of drugs for instance and um so

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on and so forth and so

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uh in philosophy it's the same thing

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still

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so even though uh physicists have shown

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that

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the universe cannot be reduced to uh a

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physical machine uh nearly a hundred

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years ago

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um

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the uh small scientists and philosophers

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are either not aware of that or they

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don't want to

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that but don't we have to be a little

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bit careful when we tread into the

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physicist territory and quantum physics

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in particular because there's a lot of

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pushback there's a whole

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tsunami of pushback on the the the way

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that quantum physics has been kind of

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weaved into a lot of new age thought and

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i'm not saying at all that that's what

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you're doing but i think there's a lot

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of fuzziness there i think what we can

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say at the very least is that it's

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clearly an unsettled issue and we have

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to take seriously the thought that that

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quantum physics suggests that

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consciousness may be fundamental in the

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way that we generally think of matter as

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being fundamental so i'm with you on all

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that yeah yeah that that's exactly my

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point yes yeah i just don't want to get

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into that whole

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battle of you know whether the observer

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effect really is and whether shut up and

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calculate all that kind of stuff i just

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think but i do think we can't shy away

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from it and that's one of the things i

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really appreciate about your book is you

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don't shy away from anything but we

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can't shy away from the fact that

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quantum physics may very well be best

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interpreted as being supportive of

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these ideas that you're talking about

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but let me switch gears for a minute

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because what i really one of the things

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i want to focus on and i just mentioned

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it i really appreciate that you're clear

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right from the start about talking in

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these kind of military terms it's a

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brain war it's a battle over science so

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i want to spend a good deal of time

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talking about the book and the

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particular issues that you bring up

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because i think as you just said one

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thing it does is it how easily

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falsifiable some of the materialist

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positions are but at the same time i

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want to understand i want you to tell us

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why

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we are in this war at the end of the day

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why there is this battle because i think

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a lot of folks tune in to the fact that

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there's a a war that there is a battle

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but they don't get it i mean so you've

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done these experiments that find that

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people can control their brain so what

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why is there a war why is there a battle

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well because there's uh

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a commitment to a certain form of

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ideology in uh mainstream science why

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why is there such a con why is because

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the at

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the beginning of at the birth of modern

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science

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the scientists decided to

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keep a certain distance from the church

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the power of the church

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understandably and that

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has helped you know science to

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evolve you know to make great progress

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but at the same time

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uh the the the founding fathers

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of modern science

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rejected in a certain sense

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the domain of subjectivity uh the first

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person

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mental experiences

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these things were considered to be

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only secondary qualities

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and the

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at the beginning they thought

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that these things were not that

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important they decided to focus more on

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the physical uh you know the physical

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world matter

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as they called that

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and so this this point of view uh became

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dominant

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made progress during the following

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centuries during the 17th and 18th

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century

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00:11:38,230 --> 00:11:35,760
this

289
00:11:39,350 --> 00:11:38,240
materialist and reductionist point of

290
00:11:42,630 --> 00:11:39,360
view

291
00:11:43,910 --> 00:11:42,640
became synonymous with science

292
00:11:46,470 --> 00:11:43,920
and

293
00:11:48,870 --> 00:11:46,480
in the 20th century it was uh it started

294
00:11:50,470 --> 00:11:48,880
to be challenged first by uh quantum

295
00:11:52,870 --> 00:11:50,480
physics but

296
00:11:54,310 --> 00:11:52,880
also in other domains

297
00:11:56,310 --> 00:11:54,320
um but

298
00:11:58,870 --> 00:11:56,320
we're now at the beginning of the 21st

299
00:12:00,710 --> 00:11:58,880
century and this view is still

300
00:12:03,030 --> 00:12:00,720
considered to be the

301
00:12:04,630 --> 00:12:03,040
you know the norm the standard the it's

302
00:12:06,150 --> 00:12:04,640
the mainstream view

303
00:12:08,389 --> 00:12:06,160
because

304
00:12:11,110 --> 00:12:08,399
it's based on a number of beliefs

305
00:12:12,230 --> 00:12:11,120
assumptions like we said before

306
00:12:15,509 --> 00:12:12,240
but

307
00:12:17,910 --> 00:12:15,519
for for a long time these assumptions

308
00:12:21,350 --> 00:12:17,920
seemed to explain very well

309
00:12:22,790 --> 00:12:21,360
uh the phenomena that were under

310
00:12:26,710 --> 00:12:22,800
investigations

311
00:12:27,990 --> 00:12:26,720
however now there's increasing evidence

312
00:12:30,710 --> 00:12:28,000
showing that

313
00:12:33,590 --> 00:12:30,720
a number of uh phenomena do not fit

314
00:12:35,509 --> 00:12:33,600
within this uh conventional uh

315
00:12:37,590 --> 00:12:35,519
materialist physical

316
00:12:38,710 --> 00:12:37,600
framework they cannot be explained very

317
00:12:40,949 --> 00:12:38,720
well

318
00:12:43,590 --> 00:12:40,959
by this framework and this is exactly

319
00:12:45,750 --> 00:12:43,600
what i'm discussing in my book brain

320
00:12:48,150 --> 00:12:45,760
wars and i think you do a wonderful job

321
00:12:50,069 --> 00:12:48,160
of it i want to get to that data i just

322
00:12:51,750 --> 00:12:50,079
want to drill into this point a little

323
00:12:54,310 --> 00:12:51,760
bit further because

324
00:12:55,750 --> 00:12:54,320
i think having covered this with a lot

325
00:12:58,150 --> 00:12:55,760
of different people

326
00:13:00,389 --> 00:12:58,160
i think there's something a little bit

327
00:13:03,190 --> 00:13:00,399
deeper going on and that's there's a

328
00:13:06,870 --> 00:13:03,200
comfort level that we all have

329
00:13:08,550 --> 00:13:06,880
with our consumerism our materialism our

330
00:13:11,110 --> 00:13:08,560
society that we've built and it's a

331
00:13:13,269 --> 00:13:11,120
wonderful wonderful society especially

332
00:13:15,110 --> 00:13:13,279
when we look back historically at how

333
00:13:17,430 --> 00:13:15,120
much people have struggled just to

334
00:13:18,949 --> 00:13:17,440
barely survive and we look at all the

335
00:13:20,949 --> 00:13:18,959
things that we have and the cars and the

336
00:13:21,670 --> 00:13:20,959
airplanes and the iphones and all that

337
00:13:25,430 --> 00:13:21,680
and

338
00:13:28,550 --> 00:13:25,440
we are so enmeshed in this materialism

339
00:13:31,430 --> 00:13:28,560
that is both consumer materialism but

340
00:13:33,590 --> 00:13:31,440
also scientific materialism then i think

341
00:13:34,550 --> 00:13:33,600
it's very very

342
00:13:36,550 --> 00:13:34,560
scary

343
00:13:39,509 --> 00:13:36,560
is the only word i can think of for

344
00:13:42,310 --> 00:13:39,519
folks to contemplate anything else how

345
00:13:43,190 --> 00:13:42,320
could we could we really maintain

346
00:13:45,430 --> 00:13:43,200
our

347
00:13:47,509 --> 00:13:45,440
way of life that we've all come become

348
00:13:49,509 --> 00:13:47,519
so comfortable with that we're better

349
00:13:51,110 --> 00:13:49,519
than this other country that we have a

350
00:13:53,190 --> 00:13:51,120
right to

351
00:13:57,269 --> 00:13:53,200
to kind of starve that other country

352
00:13:59,110 --> 00:13:57,279
deprive them of of money of oil of food

353
00:14:01,990 --> 00:13:59,120
whatever it is

354
00:14:05,030 --> 00:14:02,000
can we really maintain that if we take

355
00:14:06,710 --> 00:14:05,040
the long-term larger picture view of

356
00:14:07,670 --> 00:14:06,720
what it would mean

357
00:14:09,910 --> 00:14:07,680
to be

358
00:14:11,990 --> 00:14:09,920
post-materialistic

359
00:14:14,310 --> 00:14:12,000
both from a consumer standpoint but also

360
00:14:17,829 --> 00:14:14,320
from a scientific standpoint don't the

361
00:14:18,629 --> 00:14:17,839
issues get really big really quick when

362
00:14:20,790 --> 00:14:18,639
you

363
00:14:22,790 --> 00:14:20,800
think this thing through

364
00:14:24,550 --> 00:14:22,800
yes that's that's a very good point i

365
00:14:27,430 --> 00:14:24,560
agree with your analysis but there's

366
00:14:29,350 --> 00:14:27,440
something else also

367
00:14:31,350 --> 00:14:29,360
you scientists are humans and humans

368
00:14:33,030 --> 00:14:31,360
have their own belief systems and they

369
00:14:34,949 --> 00:14:33,040
become attached

370
00:14:35,990 --> 00:14:34,959
in the long term with their belief

371
00:14:39,110 --> 00:14:36,000
systems

372
00:14:40,150 --> 00:14:39,120
so uh scientists a number of scientists

373
00:14:41,030 --> 00:14:40,160
have been

374
00:14:43,990 --> 00:14:41,040
you know

375
00:14:45,430 --> 00:14:44,000
have believed very much in this uh

376
00:14:46,710 --> 00:14:45,440
materialist

377
00:14:49,350 --> 00:14:46,720
view

378
00:14:52,150 --> 00:14:49,360
for centuries and uh

379
00:14:54,550 --> 00:14:52,160
so it's like uh it has become a central

380
00:14:55,910 --> 00:14:54,560
dharma in various fields including

381
00:14:58,550 --> 00:14:55,920
neuroscience

382
00:15:00,870 --> 00:14:58,560
so it's it's um

383
00:15:02,230 --> 00:15:00,880
very dangerous it's scary for a number

384
00:15:05,030 --> 00:15:02,240
of people if you're starting to

385
00:15:07,269 --> 00:15:05,040
challenge this mainstream uh

386
00:15:09,110 --> 00:15:07,279
uh dogma the central dogma you know it's

387
00:15:11,829 --> 00:15:09,120
it's a little bit like in

388
00:15:13,110 --> 00:15:11,839
any other domains of society including

389
00:15:15,590 --> 00:15:13,120
religion

390
00:15:18,629 --> 00:15:15,600
uh if you threaten the belief of

391
00:15:20,230 --> 00:15:18,639
specific uh you know religious groups

392
00:15:23,829 --> 00:15:20,240
then you might be in trouble and that's

393
00:15:26,150 --> 00:15:23,839
exactly what we see also in in science

394
00:15:28,550 --> 00:15:26,160
but at a certain point when the

395
00:15:31,990 --> 00:15:28,560
so-called anomalous data

396
00:15:34,470 --> 00:15:32,000
accumulates there comes a a point where

397
00:15:37,030 --> 00:15:34,480
uh the old paradigm cannot resist

398
00:15:39,910 --> 00:15:37,040
anymore and i believe that now we are in

399
00:15:42,870 --> 00:15:39,920
a sort of uh transition period tower the

400
00:15:45,030 --> 00:15:42,880
new paradigm so there there the next

401
00:15:47,910 --> 00:15:45,040
scientific revolution should be about

402
00:15:50,629 --> 00:15:47,920
mind consciousness in my view very good

403
00:15:53,030 --> 00:15:50,639
well i think you do a nice job in the

404
00:15:54,470 --> 00:15:53,040
book of kind of pointing out how

405
00:15:57,030 --> 00:15:54,480
dramatic

406
00:15:59,269 --> 00:15:57,040
the parrot the existing paradigm is

407
00:16:02,150 --> 00:15:59,279
frayed at the edges and i like the way

408
00:16:04,550 --> 00:16:02,160
you start and tie together a lot of

409
00:16:06,870 --> 00:16:04,560
science that we all think we're very

410
00:16:09,910 --> 00:16:06,880
familiar with and we're comfortable with

411
00:16:12,550 --> 00:16:09,920
and you show us how that really violates

412
00:16:14,389 --> 00:16:12,560
this scientific materialism that we've

413
00:16:16,310 --> 00:16:14,399
all come become so

414
00:16:19,110 --> 00:16:16,320
accepting of so maybe you want to talk a

415
00:16:22,150 --> 00:16:19,120
little bit about for example the placebo

416
00:16:23,030 --> 00:16:22,160
effect and also hypnosis and how these

417
00:16:24,870 --> 00:16:23,040
two

418
00:16:27,030 --> 00:16:24,880
areas and chap there are chapters in

419
00:16:27,749 --> 00:16:27,040
your book where you do a very nice job

420
00:16:32,949 --> 00:16:27,759
of

421
00:16:35,829 --> 00:16:32,959
the research in a very accessible way

422
00:16:38,870 --> 00:16:35,839
but tell us the placebo effect and

423
00:16:41,749 --> 00:16:38,880
hypnosis how those violate the a very

424
00:16:43,430 --> 00:16:41,759
strict understanding of reductionist

425
00:16:44,710 --> 00:16:43,440
materialism

426
00:16:47,430 --> 00:16:44,720
yeah well

427
00:16:49,430 --> 00:16:47,440
for for a number of uh materialist

428
00:16:52,069 --> 00:16:49,440
thinkers and scientists

429
00:16:55,030 --> 00:16:52,079
uh the mind is totally powerless doesn't

430
00:16:56,949 --> 00:16:55,040
have any uh cannot exert any power on

431
00:16:59,030 --> 00:16:56,959
what's going on at the brain level and

432
00:17:01,749 --> 00:16:59,040
also in the body can you break that down

433
00:17:02,629 --> 00:17:01,759
and explain why that would have to be

434
00:17:04,470 --> 00:17:02,639
true

435
00:17:05,829 --> 00:17:04,480
if you were a strict scientific

436
00:17:10,549 --> 00:17:05,839
materialist

437
00:17:13,110 --> 00:17:10,559
positions so this is uh a position that

438
00:17:14,549 --> 00:17:13,120
is called epiphenomenalism so it means

439
00:17:16,710 --> 00:17:14,559
that uh

440
00:17:19,350 --> 00:17:16,720
the the these uh

441
00:17:22,230 --> 00:17:19,360
these proponents recognize that my

442
00:17:24,150 --> 00:17:22,240
mental processes uh do exist but they

443
00:17:25,909 --> 00:17:24,160
are powerless they don't have any uh

444
00:17:28,309 --> 00:17:25,919
they cannot exert any influence so

445
00:17:29,669 --> 00:17:28,319
that's one position but you have other

446
00:17:32,549 --> 00:17:29,679
position like

447
00:17:35,350 --> 00:17:32,559
uh eliminative reductionism also so

448
00:17:37,270 --> 00:17:35,360
you're trying to eliminate uh all mental

449
00:17:38,870 --> 00:17:37,280
processes like philosopher daniel

450
00:17:40,549 --> 00:17:38,880
dennett or the

451
00:17:42,310 --> 00:17:40,559
the churchlands for instance so they

452
00:17:44,070 --> 00:17:42,320
will say that

453
00:17:47,029 --> 00:17:44,080
consciousness and all the other mental

454
00:17:49,190 --> 00:17:47,039
processes are simply illusion that the

455
00:17:52,950 --> 00:17:49,200
only thing that exists is

456
00:17:55,110 --> 00:17:52,960
electrochemical activity uh in the brain

457
00:17:56,870 --> 00:17:55,120
so if this is true then of course you

458
00:17:58,710 --> 00:17:56,880
cannot influence

459
00:18:01,350 --> 00:17:58,720
the activity of your brain by your

460
00:18:03,830 --> 00:18:01,360
beliefs your expectations you see

461
00:18:05,750 --> 00:18:03,840
but that is exactly what the the placebo

462
00:18:08,630 --> 00:18:05,760
demonstrates that

463
00:18:11,270 --> 00:18:08,640
your beliefs and expectations about a

464
00:18:13,669 --> 00:18:11,280
false fake treatment

465
00:18:15,510 --> 00:18:13,679
can significantly alter

466
00:18:17,830 --> 00:18:15,520
what's happening in the brain and also

467
00:18:19,750 --> 00:18:17,840
in the physiological systems connected

468
00:18:22,549 --> 00:18:19,760
uh to the brain

469
00:18:25,510 --> 00:18:22,559
so for instance during the last decade

470
00:18:28,470 --> 00:18:25,520
there have been uh several brain imaging

471
00:18:30,470 --> 00:18:28,480
studies about the placebo effect and in

472
00:18:32,230 --> 00:18:30,480
some cases for instance there was a very

473
00:18:34,950 --> 00:18:32,240
interesting uh study done at the

474
00:18:37,190 --> 00:18:34,960
university of british columbia

475
00:18:39,590 --> 00:18:37,200
they did a study to measure the impact

476
00:18:41,510 --> 00:18:39,600
of a placebo treatment on

477
00:18:44,870 --> 00:18:41,520
people suffering from

478
00:18:47,029 --> 00:18:44,880
severe form of parkinson's disease

479
00:18:49,350 --> 00:18:47,039
in parkinson's disease there's a

480
00:18:51,590 --> 00:18:49,360
a great level of destruction

481
00:18:54,789 --> 00:18:51,600
of the nerve cell the neuron producing a

482
00:18:58,150 --> 00:18:54,799
chemical messenger that we call dopamine

483
00:19:00,470 --> 00:18:58,160
dopamine is the key chemical messenger

484
00:19:02,390 --> 00:19:00,480
in motor function but it's also involved

485
00:19:05,750 --> 00:19:02,400
in many other

486
00:19:06,870 --> 00:19:05,760
activities uh but in that specific case

487
00:19:08,230 --> 00:19:06,880
the uh

488
00:19:11,029 --> 00:19:08,240
the patients

489
00:19:12,789 --> 00:19:11,039
add a level of destruction of about 70

490
00:19:14,150 --> 00:19:12,799
to 80 percent

491
00:19:16,470 --> 00:19:14,160
uh so the

492
00:19:19,430 --> 00:19:16,480
the level of destruction of the nerve

493
00:19:21,190 --> 00:19:19,440
cells producing dopamine was quite high

494
00:19:23,350 --> 00:19:21,200
and of course they were severely

495
00:19:25,350 --> 00:19:23,360
impaired from a clinical point of view

496
00:19:28,230 --> 00:19:25,360
they had trouble to move

497
00:19:30,390 --> 00:19:28,240
they were experiencing a lot of tremors

498
00:19:32,310 --> 00:19:30,400
and so the the neurologists doing the

499
00:19:34,789 --> 00:19:32,320
the study presented them

500
00:19:35,750 --> 00:19:34,799
a fake treatment it was only distilled

501
00:19:36,710 --> 00:19:35,760
water

502
00:19:38,549 --> 00:19:36,720
but they

503
00:19:41,590 --> 00:19:38,559
they told the patients that this was

504
00:19:45,029 --> 00:19:41,600
potentially a revolutionary treatment a

505
00:19:46,230 --> 00:19:45,039
new treatment for parkinson's disease

506
00:19:48,230 --> 00:19:46,240
and

507
00:19:51,270 --> 00:19:48,240
following the injection after a few

508
00:19:53,190 --> 00:19:51,280
minutes they scanned them with

509
00:19:57,590 --> 00:19:53,200
technology that we call functional

510
00:19:59,510 --> 00:19:57,600
magnetic resonance imaging or fmri

511
00:20:01,830 --> 00:19:59,520
uh apparently in that specific case it

512
00:20:03,510 --> 00:20:01,840
was positron emission tomography so they

513
00:20:06,870 --> 00:20:03,520
were interested in measuring the

514
00:20:09,510 --> 00:20:06,880
activity of dopamine in the brain and so

515
00:20:12,070 --> 00:20:09,520
very rapidly those patients who most

516
00:20:13,750 --> 00:20:12,080
believed in the the fig treatment which

517
00:20:15,590 --> 00:20:13,760
was distilled water

518
00:20:17,669 --> 00:20:15,600
they started to produce

519
00:20:20,150 --> 00:20:17,679
dopamine and to release dopamine in

520
00:20:23,510 --> 00:20:20,160
their brains in amount comparable to

521
00:20:25,350 --> 00:20:23,520
that scene in young healthy people

522
00:20:27,510 --> 00:20:25,360
and in parallel

523
00:20:29,350 --> 00:20:27,520
they started to get much better from a

524
00:20:31,590 --> 00:20:29,360
clinical point of view so they had less

525
00:20:33,430 --> 00:20:31,600
tremors

526
00:20:35,029 --> 00:20:33,440
they had more strength

527
00:20:37,750 --> 00:20:35,039
and so

528
00:20:39,750 --> 00:20:37,760
and they were more optimistic at least

529
00:20:41,830 --> 00:20:39,760
for a certain period of time

530
00:20:44,070 --> 00:20:41,840
so this this is a very nice uh

531
00:20:46,710 --> 00:20:44,080
illustration of the power of what we

532
00:20:49,110 --> 00:20:46,720
call mind and by mine i mean all the

533
00:20:52,390 --> 00:20:49,120
mental activity mental events

534
00:20:54,870 --> 00:20:52,400
and in that specific case uh this effect

535
00:20:57,590 --> 00:20:54,880
is related simply to the

536
00:20:59,510 --> 00:20:57,600
the beliefs and also the expectations

537
00:21:02,470 --> 00:20:59,520
that the patients add

538
00:21:04,710 --> 00:21:02,480
regarding uh the fake treatment so it's

539
00:21:07,110 --> 00:21:04,720
a very nice illustration

540
00:21:09,110 --> 00:21:07,120
another interesting case is that of

541
00:21:10,070 --> 00:21:09,120
hypnosis

542
00:21:13,669 --> 00:21:10,080
so

543
00:21:16,549 --> 00:21:13,679
hypnosis is based on the suggestions

544
00:21:19,350 --> 00:21:16,559
uh coming from a hypnotist

545
00:21:21,830 --> 00:21:19,360
and the the subject of the experiment

546
00:21:22,710 --> 00:21:21,840
except the uh the suggestions

547
00:21:25,350 --> 00:21:22,720
um

548
00:21:27,110 --> 00:21:25,360
nowadays the experts in this field of

549
00:21:30,710 --> 00:21:27,120
research consider that

550
00:21:32,310 --> 00:21:30,720
all forms of hypnosis are in reality

551
00:21:34,470 --> 00:21:32,320
self-hypnosis

552
00:21:35,909 --> 00:21:34,480
that means that if the subject does not

553
00:21:38,870 --> 00:21:35,919
want to accept

554
00:21:41,430 --> 00:21:38,880
these suggestions from the hypnotists

555
00:21:44,230 --> 00:21:41,440
it won't work

556
00:21:45,750 --> 00:21:44,240
so the again during the last decade

557
00:21:48,630 --> 00:21:45,760
there's been a number of uh brain

558
00:21:50,789 --> 00:21:48,640
imaging studies that have been done

559
00:21:53,029 --> 00:21:50,799
simply to measure whether really there's

560
00:21:55,669 --> 00:21:53,039
something happening at the brain level

561
00:21:56,390 --> 00:21:55,679
because uh skeptics have been arguing

562
00:21:59,270 --> 00:21:56,400
for

563
00:22:02,630 --> 00:21:59,280
a long time that um it knows this is

564
00:22:05,510 --> 00:22:02,640
simply wishful thinking that it's only

565
00:22:06,149 --> 00:22:05,520
uh based on social compliance from the

566
00:22:07,590 --> 00:22:06,159
uh

567
00:22:09,830 --> 00:22:07,600
the subjects

568
00:22:11,430 --> 00:22:09,840
you only won't please the hypnotist but

569
00:22:14,870 --> 00:22:11,440
there's nothing else

570
00:22:16,710 --> 00:22:14,880
so uh several research teams have

571
00:22:19,270 --> 00:22:16,720
attempted to research this question

572
00:22:21,270 --> 00:22:19,280
using brain imaging and for instance

573
00:22:23,830 --> 00:22:21,280
there was a very interesting study that

574
00:22:25,669 --> 00:22:23,840
done at harvard

575
00:22:27,990 --> 00:22:25,679
they were interested the researchers

576
00:22:31,510 --> 00:22:28,000
were looking for the uh the neural

577
00:22:32,870 --> 00:22:31,520
correlates of color vision so neural

578
00:22:34,149 --> 00:22:32,880
correlates

579
00:22:36,470 --> 00:22:34,159
are

580
00:22:38,630 --> 00:22:36,480
physical processes in the brain whether

581
00:22:41,350 --> 00:22:38,640
electrical or chemical

582
00:22:43,990 --> 00:22:41,360
that are related to a specific mental

583
00:22:46,789 --> 00:22:44,000
activity for instance uh it can be

584
00:22:48,710 --> 00:22:46,799
perception perception of color

585
00:22:50,390 --> 00:22:48,720
so in that case the

586
00:22:53,190 --> 00:22:50,400
scan the subjects

587
00:22:56,149 --> 00:22:53,200
uh highly uh it noticeable subjects

588
00:23:00,950 --> 00:22:56,159
which means that these people had the

589
00:23:03,270 --> 00:23:00,960
capacity to uh enter quite easily into a

590
00:23:04,870 --> 00:23:03,280
a trend state

591
00:23:06,950 --> 00:23:04,880
deep enough

592
00:23:09,510 --> 00:23:06,960
and so they these these subjects were

593
00:23:12,549 --> 00:23:09,520
able to um

594
00:23:14,630 --> 00:23:12,559
to imagine that they were

595
00:23:17,110 --> 00:23:14,640
looking or seeing

596
00:23:19,270 --> 00:23:17,120
different types of pattern colors

597
00:23:22,950 --> 00:23:19,280
in accordance with the suggestions of

598
00:23:25,909 --> 00:23:22,960
the the researchers doing the study and

599
00:23:28,549 --> 00:23:25,919
so uh it was very interesting because

600
00:23:31,510 --> 00:23:28,559
the when they were presenting

601
00:23:33,350 --> 00:23:31,520
stimuli that were colored but the

602
00:23:36,630 --> 00:23:33,360
researchers were training the uh the

603
00:23:38,310 --> 00:23:36,640
subjects that this distinctly were only

604
00:23:39,510 --> 00:23:38,320
green

605
00:23:42,870 --> 00:23:39,520
the uh

606
00:23:44,789 --> 00:23:42,880
the brain regions uh associated with the

607
00:23:47,110 --> 00:23:44,799
treatment the processing of color in the

608
00:23:48,830 --> 00:23:47,120
brain were not activated

609
00:23:50,630 --> 00:23:48,840
even though the stimuli were

610
00:23:53,669 --> 00:23:50,640
colored and

611
00:23:57,110 --> 00:23:53,679
and the reverse effect was also measured

612
00:23:59,430 --> 00:23:57,120
was also observed in the study that is

613
00:24:01,029 --> 00:23:59,440
uh when there was no color

614
00:24:03,350 --> 00:24:01,039
in the stimuli

615
00:24:06,789 --> 00:24:03,360
there was still activation in the

616
00:24:09,029 --> 00:24:06,799
regions of the brain processing colors

617
00:24:11,750 --> 00:24:09,039
so again this is a very nice

618
00:24:13,669 --> 00:24:11,760
illustration that what's going on at the

619
00:24:15,830 --> 00:24:13,679
minor level can

620
00:24:18,549 --> 00:24:15,840
exert a great influence over what's

621
00:24:20,630 --> 00:24:18,559
happening in terms of brain activity

622
00:24:22,230 --> 00:24:20,640
right exactly like i said you do a very

623
00:24:23,909 --> 00:24:22,240
nice job in the book and i really

624
00:24:25,909 --> 00:24:23,919
encourage folks to get to get the book

625
00:24:28,149 --> 00:24:25,919
whether you're a skeptic or a proponent

626
00:24:30,710 --> 00:24:28,159
or whatever just the person interested

627
00:24:33,750 --> 00:24:30,720
in science i think you'll enjoy the way

628
00:24:35,510 --> 00:24:33,760
that you bring forth this research and

629
00:24:37,909 --> 00:24:35,520
you really document a way that's easy

630
00:24:40,070 --> 00:24:37,919
accessible you do have the nice uh

631
00:24:41,830 --> 00:24:40,080
annotations references to the research

632
00:24:44,549 --> 00:24:41,840
if people want to go look it up but

633
00:24:45,750 --> 00:24:44,559
that's all there so the question then

634
00:24:48,470 --> 00:24:45,760
remains

635
00:24:51,430 --> 00:24:48,480
so why are we still having a war you've

636
00:24:53,029 --> 00:24:51,440
you've just now linked up for us two

637
00:24:54,950 --> 00:24:53,039
things that we already were pretty

638
00:24:57,750 --> 00:24:54,960
accepting of hey we all have heard of

639
00:25:00,310 --> 00:24:57,760
the placebo effect we know that every

640
00:25:03,190 --> 00:25:00,320
study every pharmaceutical study every

641
00:25:05,110 --> 00:25:03,200
scientific study has to allow for a

642
00:25:06,950 --> 00:25:05,120
placebo effect so they must

643
00:25:09,269 --> 00:25:06,960
recognize that there's some reality to

644
00:25:10,230 --> 00:25:09,279
it and hypnosis has become so common

645
00:25:12,310 --> 00:25:10,240
that i think

646
00:25:14,470 --> 00:25:12,320
at least one out of three people have

647
00:25:17,269 --> 00:25:14,480
had some kind of hypnosis while at the

648
00:25:19,669 --> 00:25:17,279
dentist or someplace else so given that

649
00:25:22,230 --> 00:25:19,679
we accept these

650
00:25:24,549 --> 00:25:22,240
modalities these treatments these

651
00:25:26,390 --> 00:25:24,559
understandings that violate strict

652
00:25:29,190 --> 00:25:26,400
materialism why are we still in the

653
00:25:31,430 --> 00:25:29,200
battle why do we still have the war

654
00:25:33,590 --> 00:25:31,440
well because uh

655
00:25:34,630 --> 00:25:33,600
a number of scientists considered that

656
00:25:36,950 --> 00:25:34,640
you can

657
00:25:39,029 --> 00:25:36,960
interpret these phenomena

658
00:25:41,190 --> 00:25:39,039
using a strictly uh materialist

659
00:25:44,789 --> 00:25:41,200
framework how do they do that what would

660
00:25:47,110 --> 00:25:44,799
be the well they they will say that

661
00:25:49,110 --> 00:25:47,120
for instance you can reduce uh the

662
00:25:50,789 --> 00:25:49,120
beliefs and the expectations of a

663
00:25:53,430 --> 00:25:50,799
patient regarding

664
00:25:55,269 --> 00:25:53,440
the fake treatment to

665
00:25:57,830 --> 00:25:55,279
electrical and chemical activity in

666
00:26:00,310 --> 00:25:57,840
specific portions of the brain so what

667
00:26:03,510 --> 00:26:00,320
they are saying essentially is that it's

668
00:26:04,390 --> 00:26:03,520
the brain acting upon the brain there's

669
00:26:09,590 --> 00:26:04,400
no

670
00:26:12,549 --> 00:26:09,600
functions

671
00:26:15,190 --> 00:26:12,559
uh apart from the brain to explain this

672
00:26:18,230 --> 00:26:15,200
kind of phenomenon that's what they say

673
00:26:21,510 --> 00:26:18,240
but doesn't that kind of result in some

674
00:26:22,710 --> 00:26:21,520
kind of recursive logic that at the end

675
00:26:24,630 --> 00:26:22,720
of the day

676
00:26:26,470 --> 00:26:24,640
gets into all sorts of other problems

677
00:26:29,430 --> 00:26:26,480
made what what what is the starting

678
00:26:30,789 --> 00:26:29,440
point in their explanation for such an

679
00:26:32,789 --> 00:26:30,799
activity it gets into the whole

680
00:26:35,669 --> 00:26:32,799
neuroplasticity argument you know i mean

681
00:26:37,830 --> 00:26:35,679
like if we show that neuroplasticity is

682
00:26:39,830 --> 00:26:37,840
real and that we can rewire our brain

683
00:26:41,909 --> 00:26:39,840
and and you've done some research on

684
00:26:44,710 --> 00:26:41,919
this as well and yeah some work on this

685
00:26:46,470 --> 00:26:44,720
yeah then doesn't it ultimately lead to

686
00:26:49,110 --> 00:26:46,480
the question of well then what was the

687
00:26:51,590 --> 00:26:49,120
beginning point and wasn't there some

688
00:26:53,590 --> 00:26:51,600
observer some consciousness that might

689
00:26:55,269 --> 00:26:53,600
have started this process

690
00:26:58,149 --> 00:26:55,279
yeah but for for them the

691
00:27:00,149 --> 00:26:58,159
neuroplasticity is simply the brain uh

692
00:27:02,310 --> 00:27:00,159
rewiring itself

693
00:27:04,149 --> 00:27:02,320
again they want uh

694
00:27:06,870 --> 00:27:04,159
they don't need uh you know

695
00:27:08,470 --> 00:27:06,880
consciousness and other mental functions

696
00:27:10,470 --> 00:27:08,480
to explain that

697
00:27:11,269 --> 00:27:10,480
that's what he's saying but

698
00:27:15,029 --> 00:27:11,279
uh

699
00:27:17,669 --> 00:27:15,039
explanation

700
00:27:21,190 --> 00:27:17,679
uh because you know the brain doesn't uh

701
00:27:23,590 --> 00:27:21,200
the brain to me will respond to the um

702
00:27:26,070 --> 00:27:23,600
the expectations or the beliefs

703
00:27:28,950 --> 00:27:26,080
and so if your

704
00:27:31,750 --> 00:27:28,960
beliefs are negative about fake

705
00:27:33,430 --> 00:27:31,760
treatment bogus treatment then you will

706
00:27:34,630 --> 00:27:33,440
experience something totally different

707
00:27:35,510 --> 00:27:34,640
so

708
00:27:37,190 --> 00:27:35,520
uh

709
00:27:39,110 --> 00:27:37,200
in terms of the chemical messengers

710
00:27:41,510 --> 00:27:39,120
involved in the response and so it's

711
00:27:43,909 --> 00:27:41,520
called in the sibo effect

712
00:27:45,990 --> 00:27:43,919
uh it's exactly the reverse

713
00:27:47,510 --> 00:27:46,000
so you you need a

714
00:27:49,269 --> 00:27:47,520
a person

715
00:27:51,510 --> 00:27:49,279
and the consciousness

716
00:27:53,990 --> 00:27:51,520
in order to produce phenomenon like that

717
00:27:55,909 --> 00:27:54,000
otherwise doesn't make any sense at all

718
00:27:59,430 --> 00:27:55,919
because the brain itself

719
00:28:01,669 --> 00:27:59,440
is quite neutral so you can influence it

720
00:28:04,710 --> 00:28:01,679
in a way or another for instance we've

721
00:28:07,669 --> 00:28:04,720
done a another brain imaging studies

722
00:28:10,630 --> 00:28:07,679
a positron emissions tomography study

723
00:28:12,789 --> 00:28:10,640
and uh in that case we measured

724
00:28:16,389 --> 00:28:12,799
the activity of

725
00:28:18,870 --> 00:28:16,399
serotonin which is uh very much involved

726
00:28:20,710 --> 00:28:18,880
in mood regulation

727
00:28:21,909 --> 00:28:20,720
and also in the emotions a lot of

728
00:28:26,070 --> 00:28:21,919
emotions

729
00:28:27,029 --> 00:28:26,080
and uh so we have our subjects to simply

730
00:28:30,710 --> 00:28:27,039
um

731
00:28:33,830 --> 00:28:30,720
remember and try to reenact the saddest

732
00:28:35,669 --> 00:28:33,840
episode of their lives and we we had

733
00:28:37,590 --> 00:28:35,679
another condition in which we asked the

734
00:28:40,950 --> 00:28:37,600
same thing but this time

735
00:28:42,950 --> 00:28:40,960
they had to uh reenact the happiest

736
00:28:46,310 --> 00:28:42,960
moment of their lives

737
00:28:49,909 --> 00:28:46,320
and in a matter of only a few minutes

738
00:28:53,190 --> 00:28:49,919
we measured uh either increases in terms

739
00:28:56,549 --> 00:28:53,200
of serotonin production or decrease

740
00:28:57,430 --> 00:28:56,559
increases in the positive uh the happy

741
00:29:03,510 --> 00:28:57,440
state

742
00:29:06,149 --> 00:29:03,520
within a few minutes

743
00:29:08,549 --> 00:29:06,159
in regions of the brain related to uh

744
00:29:10,470 --> 00:29:08,559
emotions and mood regulation

745
00:29:12,710 --> 00:29:10,480
you see so

746
00:29:15,350 --> 00:29:12,720
this shows really that

747
00:29:16,549 --> 00:29:15,360
the content itself of the uh the mental

748
00:29:17,830 --> 00:29:16,559
processes

749
00:29:21,269 --> 00:29:17,840
their nature

750
00:29:23,430 --> 00:29:21,279
will influence the direction that the

751
00:29:25,750 --> 00:29:23,440
brain activity will take

752
00:29:28,070 --> 00:29:25,760
um so that's why i'm claiming that it's

753
00:29:30,149 --> 00:29:28,080
not possible to interpret this

754
00:29:33,190 --> 00:29:30,159
this kind of phenomenon

755
00:29:36,789 --> 00:29:33,200
without you know uh recognizing the

756
00:29:39,750 --> 00:29:36,799
existence of uh mental processes it

757
00:29:41,669 --> 00:29:39,760
certainly seems a lot cleaner but it

758
00:29:43,269 --> 00:29:41,679
seems rather obvious what about this

759
00:29:45,590 --> 00:29:43,279
argument and you'll hear this sometimes

760
00:29:47,830 --> 00:29:45,600
too what about folks who say okay

761
00:29:49,750 --> 00:29:47,840
just because you've shown that maybe

762
00:29:51,110 --> 00:29:49,760
this strict materialism as you've

763
00:29:53,750 --> 00:29:51,120
defined it

764
00:29:55,510 --> 00:29:53,760
doesn't work in this situation

765
00:29:57,830 --> 00:29:55,520
maybe there's something else down the

766
00:30:00,070 --> 00:29:57,840
road that quote-unquote science will

767
00:30:03,110 --> 00:30:00,080
discover that will explain this we don't

768
00:30:05,510 --> 00:30:03,120
need to jump to this idea of

769
00:30:06,789 --> 00:30:05,520
there being a you inside your head

770
00:30:08,470 --> 00:30:06,799
they're being consciousness they're

771
00:30:10,470 --> 00:30:08,480
being dualism no matter what word you

772
00:30:12,789 --> 00:30:10,480
want to throw at it we don't need to

773
00:30:14,710 --> 00:30:12,799
jump off of the ship that we're on just

774
00:30:16,470 --> 00:30:14,720
yet just because we have this finding

775
00:30:18,630 --> 00:30:16,480
well how do you respond to that

776
00:30:21,190 --> 00:30:18,640
well yeah this is called promissory

777
00:30:25,029 --> 00:30:21,200
materialism and

778
00:30:29,029 --> 00:30:25,039
this concept uh was uh proposed by

779
00:30:32,549 --> 00:30:29,039
a famous philosopher science karl popper

780
00:30:35,669 --> 00:30:32,559
in the 20th century and uh but popper

781
00:30:37,830 --> 00:30:35,679
analyzed the text of the materialist

782
00:30:39,669 --> 00:30:37,840
across a number of centuries

783
00:30:41,990 --> 00:30:39,679
and uh the funny thing is that he

784
00:30:45,269 --> 00:30:42,000
realized that they were exactly saying

785
00:30:48,070 --> 00:30:45,279
the same thing 300 300 years ago or 200

786
00:30:51,029 --> 00:30:48,080
years ago or 100 years ago so they've

787
00:30:52,470 --> 00:30:51,039
always been arguing this

788
00:30:54,789 --> 00:30:52,480
and so that's

789
00:30:57,190 --> 00:30:54,799
one aspect of the thing but now we have

790
00:31:00,549 --> 00:30:57,200
evidence

791
00:31:02,470 --> 00:31:00,559
showing in my view that this this

792
00:31:05,110 --> 00:31:02,480
materialist outlook

793
00:31:07,909 --> 00:31:05,120
is simply wrong it's false

794
00:31:09,909 --> 00:31:07,919
and i'm referring here to uh

795
00:31:11,990 --> 00:31:09,919
the the studies about the the so-called

796
00:31:14,950 --> 00:31:12,000
near-death uh phenomena near death

797
00:31:16,789 --> 00:31:14,960
experience phenomenon especially during

798
00:31:18,710 --> 00:31:16,799
cardiac arrests

799
00:31:21,029 --> 00:31:18,720
why this is important because during

800
00:31:23,590 --> 00:31:21,039
cardiac arrest there's a

801
00:31:24,630 --> 00:31:23,600
the blood flow to the brain will cease

802
00:31:26,630 --> 00:31:24,640
uh

803
00:31:28,149 --> 00:31:26,640
following a number of seconds usually

804
00:31:30,230 --> 00:31:28,159
quite rapidly

805
00:31:32,950 --> 00:31:30,240
and if you're measuring electrical

806
00:31:35,029 --> 00:31:32,960
activity in the brain using an eeg or

807
00:31:37,909 --> 00:31:35,039
electrons photograph

808
00:31:41,110 --> 00:31:37,919
the eeg will become flat within 10 to 20

809
00:31:43,430 --> 00:31:41,120
seconds usually so in that kind of state

810
00:31:45,430 --> 00:31:43,440
according to mainstream neuroscience

811
00:31:47,269 --> 00:31:45,440
higher mental functions

812
00:31:49,350 --> 00:31:47,279
are not possible

813
00:31:50,870 --> 00:31:49,360
yet during the last

814
00:31:52,470 --> 00:31:50,880
10 years

815
00:31:54,470 --> 00:31:52,480
i think there's been four or five

816
00:31:56,710 --> 00:31:54,480
different studies

817
00:31:58,149 --> 00:31:56,720
documenting over a hundred cases of

818
00:32:01,110 --> 00:31:58,159
patients

819
00:32:02,389 --> 00:32:01,120
who we've reported conscious mental

820
00:32:05,190 --> 00:32:02,399
activity

821
00:32:07,750 --> 00:32:05,200
uh during a state of cardiac arrest

822
00:32:11,669 --> 00:32:07,760
so this is quite uh interesting

823
00:32:13,990 --> 00:32:11,679
um and it's very hard for materialists

824
00:32:17,110 --> 00:32:14,000
scientists or philosophers to uh

825
00:32:19,269 --> 00:32:17,120
interpret this kind of phenomenon

826
00:32:21,830 --> 00:32:19,279
yes indeed you know we've covered that

827
00:32:24,149 --> 00:32:21,840
topic extensively on this show

828
00:32:25,590 --> 00:32:24,159
but i do like the way that you summed it

829
00:32:27,750 --> 00:32:25,600
up there and the way that you sum it up

830
00:32:28,470 --> 00:32:27,760
in your book is quite nice

831
00:32:31,350 --> 00:32:28,480
so

832
00:32:32,870 --> 00:32:31,360
let's get on to the other elephant in

833
00:32:35,029 --> 00:32:32,880
the room here

834
00:32:37,269 --> 00:32:35,039
dr beauregard one of the criticisms of

835
00:32:40,830 --> 00:32:37,279
your work and it's sometimes made

836
00:32:44,149 --> 00:32:40,840
explicitly and sometimes just subtly

837
00:32:45,830 --> 00:32:44,159
implied is that you're pushing some kind

838
00:32:48,710 --> 00:32:45,840
of you're peddling some kind of

839
00:32:51,110 --> 00:32:48,720
christian agenda you really are trying

840
00:32:52,310 --> 00:32:51,120
to convert people to some kind of

841
00:32:54,070 --> 00:32:52,320
religion

842
00:32:56,310 --> 00:32:54,080
how do you respond to that

843
00:32:58,310 --> 00:32:56,320
well i would say that this is not true

844
00:32:59,830 --> 00:32:58,320
at all because i'm not i'm not religious

845
00:33:01,110 --> 00:32:59,840
at all i don't have any religious

846
00:33:02,950 --> 00:33:01,120
affiliation

847
00:33:06,549 --> 00:33:02,960
uh so

848
00:33:08,710 --> 00:33:06,559
uh this is uh funny to hear

849
00:33:11,190 --> 00:33:08,720
however i would i consider myself to be

850
00:33:13,509 --> 00:33:11,200
a spiritual person but

851
00:33:16,149 --> 00:33:13,519
i'm not pushing any religious agenda

852
00:33:18,710 --> 00:33:16,159
here i don't have any ties with

853
00:33:20,470 --> 00:33:18,720
religious organizations great and i'm

854
00:33:23,269 --> 00:33:20,480
glad you had a chance to get that out

855
00:33:25,190 --> 00:33:23,279
there because i think it's often subtly

856
00:33:27,110 --> 00:33:25,200
implied and sometimes not even so subtly

857
00:33:29,590 --> 00:33:27,120
implied that that's what's really going

858
00:33:32,070 --> 00:33:29,600
on here and at the same time

859
00:33:34,389 --> 00:33:32,080
you're good totally false good

860
00:33:37,430 --> 00:33:34,399
because at the same time though i think

861
00:33:38,549 --> 00:33:37,440
there's we can be too reactionary the

862
00:33:41,269 --> 00:33:38,559
other way

863
00:33:43,029 --> 00:33:41,279
because we have to i think and i'd love

864
00:33:45,430 --> 00:33:43,039
to i'm just throwing out my opinion i

865
00:33:47,750 --> 00:33:45,440
really want to get your opinion but i

866
00:33:50,830 --> 00:33:47,760
don't think we can play down the

867
00:33:53,430 --> 00:33:50,840
spiritual implications of some of this

868
00:33:55,590 --> 00:33:53,440
work for example the near-death

869
00:33:58,230 --> 00:33:55,600
experience science we can look at it

870
00:34:00,230 --> 00:33:58,240
purely uh analytically from the science

871
00:34:02,149 --> 00:34:00,240
standpoint and we can say wow this looks

872
00:34:04,710 --> 00:34:02,159
like there's something there and we

873
00:34:07,269 --> 00:34:04,720
would be very inclined then to take the

874
00:34:10,470 --> 00:34:07,279
next step in terms of what they're

875
00:34:13,270 --> 00:34:10,480
telling us about spirituality and how it

876
00:34:15,510 --> 00:34:13,280
does link back at least in some general

877
00:34:18,310 --> 00:34:15,520
way to some of the wisdom traditions and

878
00:34:20,550 --> 00:34:18,320
religions that we've had over time so

879
00:34:23,750 --> 00:34:20,560
what is your thought on that do we need

880
00:34:25,430 --> 00:34:23,760
to go there do we need to say hey there

881
00:34:28,069 --> 00:34:25,440
are some spiritual implications here

882
00:34:31,430 --> 00:34:28,079
that may have to be dealt with once we

883
00:34:33,669 --> 00:34:31,440
cross this chasm to a post-materialistic

884
00:34:36,310 --> 00:34:33,679
world or do we just kind of keep our

885
00:34:39,270 --> 00:34:36,320
nose to the grindstone and ignore all

886
00:34:41,589 --> 00:34:39,280
that and just pretend like it's all just

887
00:34:45,109 --> 00:34:41,599
about materialism

888
00:34:47,270 --> 00:34:45,119
no no um i i can i agree with you uh

889
00:34:50,389 --> 00:34:47,280
because if

890
00:34:52,149 --> 00:34:50,399
uh of course when we speak of uh

891
00:34:53,030 --> 00:34:52,159
so-called near-death experience during

892
00:34:55,589 --> 00:34:53,040
uh

893
00:34:57,589 --> 00:34:55,599
cardiac arrest for instance the people

894
00:34:58,470 --> 00:34:57,599
usually are reanimated within a few

895
00:35:03,030 --> 00:34:58,480
minutes

896
00:35:05,109 --> 00:35:03,040
because we cannot stay in that kind of

897
00:35:08,550 --> 00:35:05,119
state for a long long time

898
00:35:10,069 --> 00:35:08,560
without uh you know severe cerebral

899
00:35:11,589 --> 00:35:10,079
damage

900
00:35:15,390 --> 00:35:11,599
so

901
00:35:17,670 --> 00:35:15,400
about their

902
00:35:18,870 --> 00:35:17,680
transcendental component of their

903
00:35:21,829 --> 00:35:18,880
experience

904
00:35:24,230 --> 00:35:21,839
uh whether it's being a meeting with a

905
00:35:26,390 --> 00:35:24,240
beautiful being a flight or meeting with

906
00:35:27,829 --> 00:35:26,400
deceased friends or relatives and so on

907
00:35:29,430 --> 00:35:27,839
and so forth

908
00:35:31,670 --> 00:35:29,440
that from a scientific point of view we

909
00:35:35,109 --> 00:35:31,680
cannot validate it or not

910
00:35:37,589 --> 00:35:35,119
we can only uh attempt to validate what

911
00:35:38,870 --> 00:35:37,599
the report from a perceptual point of

912
00:35:41,990 --> 00:35:38,880
view so the

913
00:35:45,510 --> 00:35:42,000
um the out of body component of this

914
00:35:48,150 --> 00:35:45,520
experience that can be corroborated by

915
00:35:49,829 --> 00:35:48,160
external source and it's been done in a

916
00:35:52,870 --> 00:35:49,839
few cases

917
00:35:54,390 --> 00:35:52,880
by members of the medical staff

918
00:35:56,790 --> 00:35:54,400
so but

919
00:35:58,470 --> 00:35:56,800
of course like you said

920
00:36:01,030 --> 00:35:58,480
what they are reporting from a

921
00:36:04,390 --> 00:36:01,040
subjective point of view

922
00:36:06,950 --> 00:36:04,400
seems to um you know validate some

923
00:36:10,230 --> 00:36:06,960
spiritual traditions seems to

924
00:36:11,589 --> 00:36:10,240
uh provide certain evidence that there

925
00:36:16,150 --> 00:36:11,599
might be

926
00:36:16,870 --> 00:36:16,160
uh spiritual realms out there uh

927
00:36:25,030 --> 00:36:16,880
and

928
00:36:29,589 --> 00:36:27,270
this would not surprise me at all if

929
00:36:32,150 --> 00:36:29,599
there's a there are a multitude of

930
00:36:34,550 --> 00:36:32,160
spiritual realms that we don't know yet

931
00:36:37,190 --> 00:36:34,560
um and i don't think it's it's not

932
00:36:37,990 --> 00:36:37,200
scientific to have that kind of point of

933
00:36:38,870 --> 00:36:38,000
view

934
00:36:39,750 --> 00:36:38,880
um

935
00:36:43,190 --> 00:36:39,760
uh

936
00:36:44,950 --> 00:36:43,200
it's human isn't it i mean that's the

937
00:36:48,150 --> 00:36:44,960
part i think we have to acknowledge that

938
00:36:50,069 --> 00:36:48,160
these are fundamental human questions

939
00:36:51,910 --> 00:36:50,079
that the whole endeavor of science

940
00:36:54,310 --> 00:36:51,920
that's why it came about was to

941
00:36:55,910 --> 00:36:54,320
understand who we are what place we are

942
00:36:57,829 --> 00:36:55,920
what place we have in the universe what

943
00:36:59,670 --> 00:36:57,839
happens to us when we die these are the

944
00:37:02,630 --> 00:36:59,680
ultimate questions so i i think that

945
00:37:04,390 --> 00:37:02,640
this couldn't be more fairly put that

946
00:37:05,670 --> 00:37:04,400
these are real concerns that we all have

947
00:37:09,030 --> 00:37:05,680
we have to acknowledge

948
00:37:11,589 --> 00:37:09,040
yes and also uh spiritual experiences

949
00:37:12,950 --> 00:37:11,599
have been reported across all uh

950
00:37:16,230 --> 00:37:12,960
traditions

951
00:37:17,910 --> 00:37:16,240
uh cultures and since the beginning of

952
00:37:20,630 --> 00:37:17,920
time you know so

953
00:37:22,390 --> 00:37:20,640
uh they really do exist from a

954
00:37:24,390 --> 00:37:22,400
subjective point of view

955
00:37:26,310 --> 00:37:24,400
now we don't have the uh of course we

956
00:37:27,109 --> 00:37:26,320
don't have a scientific explanation for

957
00:37:31,270 --> 00:37:27,119
the

958
00:37:34,069 --> 00:37:31,280
what i'm saying is that we we need to

959
00:37:36,950 --> 00:37:34,079
remain uh open-minded regarding this

960
00:37:38,710 --> 00:37:36,960
aspect very good near the end of your

961
00:37:42,390 --> 00:37:38,720
book brain wars

962
00:37:44,790 --> 00:37:42,400
you talk about a shift in consciousness

963
00:37:46,790 --> 00:37:44,800
and i'd like you to talk about that and

964
00:37:48,950 --> 00:37:46,800
whether you really think

965
00:37:51,829 --> 00:37:48,960
number one that is likely that can come

966
00:37:54,230 --> 00:37:51,839
about we are so enmeshed we are so

967
00:37:57,030 --> 00:37:54,240
married to this materialism can we

968
00:37:59,510 --> 00:37:57,040
really get beyond it and question two

969
00:38:01,910 --> 00:37:59,520
related to that is how might that come

970
00:38:04,550 --> 00:38:01,920
about is it going to be an evolutionary

971
00:38:07,510 --> 00:38:04,560
change or does it require a radical

972
00:38:08,310 --> 00:38:07,520
revolutionary shift

973
00:38:13,750 --> 00:38:08,320
uh

974
00:38:15,589 --> 00:38:13,760
at least in my own field

975
00:38:17,270 --> 00:38:15,599
there's a increasing number of

976
00:38:19,190 --> 00:38:17,280
scientists

977
00:38:22,069 --> 00:38:19,200
and also in other disciplines

978
00:38:25,510 --> 00:38:22,079
challenging the old materialist

979
00:38:27,589 --> 00:38:25,520
worldview so it's done not only by

980
00:38:30,069 --> 00:38:27,599
scientists but also by philosophers

981
00:38:31,270 --> 00:38:30,079
themselves so in the last few years

982
00:38:33,910 --> 00:38:31,280
we've seen

983
00:38:36,390 --> 00:38:33,920
books uh came out you know about the

984
00:38:38,069 --> 00:38:36,400
waning of materialism and so on and so

985
00:38:39,990 --> 00:38:38,079
forth and

986
00:38:41,829 --> 00:38:40,000
so now uh

987
00:38:43,670 --> 00:38:41,839
several different scientists are

988
00:38:45,750 --> 00:38:43,680
starting to question this

989
00:38:48,950 --> 00:38:45,760
uh so so we're in a transition period

990
00:38:50,069 --> 00:38:48,960
like i said before and uh in certain

991
00:38:53,270 --> 00:38:50,079
circles

992
00:38:56,310 --> 00:38:53,280
uh scientists are uh creating sorts of

993
00:38:58,470 --> 00:38:56,320
uh union we're getting together or

994
00:38:59,510 --> 00:38:58,480
trying to getting organized

995
00:39:01,510 --> 00:38:59,520
um

996
00:39:03,510 --> 00:39:01,520
and uh

997
00:39:04,950 --> 00:39:03,520
for instance there's a

998
00:39:07,910 --> 00:39:04,960
special issue

999
00:39:09,829 --> 00:39:07,920
of a journal which a mainstream journal

1000
00:39:11,670 --> 00:39:09,839
in neuroscience called frontiers in

1001
00:39:13,750 --> 00:39:11,680
human neuroscience

1002
00:39:16,390 --> 00:39:13,760
and next year there will be a special

1003
00:39:17,510 --> 00:39:16,400
issue about the possibility of non-local

1004
00:39:19,750 --> 00:39:17,520
mind

1005
00:39:22,550 --> 00:39:19,760
and this is a sign of time because

1006
00:39:24,950 --> 00:39:22,560
only 10 years ago or 15 20 years ago

1007
00:39:27,670 --> 00:39:24,960
this would have not been possible at all

1008
00:39:30,790 --> 00:39:27,680
so now it's becoming possible

1009
00:39:33,829 --> 00:39:30,800
to discuss these important issues

1010
00:39:37,109 --> 00:39:33,839
publicly and even to challenge

1011
00:39:40,150 --> 00:39:37,119
the mainstream view openly overtly so

1012
00:39:42,470 --> 00:39:40,160
that this was not possible at all before

1013
00:39:45,670 --> 00:39:42,480
so there's there's a progress uh

1014
00:39:47,190 --> 00:39:45,680
regarding this uh this uh evolution in

1015
00:39:48,950 --> 00:39:47,200
our field

1016
00:39:51,510 --> 00:39:48,960
um and so

1017
00:39:54,310 --> 00:39:51,520
so i think that um

1018
00:39:56,390 --> 00:39:54,320
there eventually will be another revel a

1019
00:39:58,710 --> 00:39:56,400
big revolution in science

1020
00:40:01,109 --> 00:39:58,720
and this will uh be about

1021
00:40:01,990 --> 00:40:01,119
mind and consciousness and the same kind

1022
00:40:04,470 --> 00:40:02,000
of

1023
00:40:06,710 --> 00:40:04,480
revolution that they've had

1024
00:40:08,870 --> 00:40:06,720
about 100 years ago in physics from

1025
00:40:11,510 --> 00:40:08,880
classical physics to quantum physics

1026
00:40:14,150 --> 00:40:11,520
will have the probably the same

1027
00:40:15,589 --> 00:40:14,160
you know in our own field

1028
00:40:17,990 --> 00:40:15,599
and uh

1029
00:40:19,270 --> 00:40:18,000
at the same time in parallel of course

1030
00:40:22,470 --> 00:40:19,280
like you said at the beginning of the

1031
00:40:24,470 --> 00:40:22,480
interview if you talk to lay people

1032
00:40:26,630 --> 00:40:24,480
uh to most people they do not believe

1033
00:40:29,349 --> 00:40:26,640
that they are strictly biological robots

1034
00:40:31,589 --> 00:40:29,359
that they don't have any influence over

1035
00:40:34,310 --> 00:40:31,599
their brain activity or what's happening

1036
00:40:35,670 --> 00:40:34,320
in the body and so on and so forth and

1037
00:40:39,910 --> 00:40:35,680
so

1038
00:40:43,430 --> 00:40:39,920
it won't be difficult uh if there's uh

1039
00:40:45,910 --> 00:40:43,440
the start of uh really a transition in

1040
00:40:48,550 --> 00:40:45,920
science within science

1041
00:40:49,829 --> 00:40:48,560
uh it will go uh

1042
00:40:52,470 --> 00:40:49,839
quickly

1043
00:40:55,349 --> 00:40:52,480
because the rest of the world you know

1044
00:40:58,309 --> 00:40:55,359
is very sympathetic regarding

1045
00:41:00,630 --> 00:40:58,319
a non-materialist view of

1046
00:41:02,710 --> 00:41:00,640
consciousness and of human life

1047
00:41:05,589 --> 00:41:02,720
of the universe right right very good

1048
00:41:07,109 --> 00:41:05,599
very good point so dr bergaard tell us a

1049
00:41:09,829 --> 00:41:07,119
little bit about the research that

1050
00:41:11,270 --> 00:41:09,839
you're currently engaged in and also if

1051
00:41:13,510 --> 00:41:11,280
you want to tell us anything else we can

1052
00:41:16,950 --> 00:41:13,520
find out about the book that'd be great

1053
00:41:19,030 --> 00:41:16,960
too so what are you working on nowadays

1054
00:41:21,109 --> 00:41:19,040
well i'm doing uh

1055
00:41:23,829 --> 00:41:21,119
i'm doing uh

1056
00:41:26,470 --> 00:41:23,839
brain imaging uh experiments regarding

1057
00:41:28,790 --> 00:41:26,480
uh some types of altered well altered

1058
00:41:30,390 --> 00:41:28,800
states of consciousness and especially

1059
00:41:32,069 --> 00:41:30,400
uh spiritual

1060
00:41:34,390 --> 00:41:32,079
uh consciousness

1061
00:41:37,670 --> 00:41:34,400
uh so so that's one thing i'm also uh

1062
00:41:39,270 --> 00:41:37,680
investigating uh the the capacity of um

1063
00:41:42,470 --> 00:41:39,280
the human mind

1064
00:41:45,349 --> 00:41:42,480
to influence uh or to control

1065
00:41:47,430 --> 00:41:45,359
the activity of regions involved in

1066
00:41:49,270 --> 00:41:47,440
emotional responses so it's called

1067
00:41:52,150 --> 00:41:49,280
emotion regulation

1068
00:41:53,990 --> 00:41:52,160
so that's that's uh one aspect but uh

1069
00:41:55,750 --> 00:41:54,000
from a theoretical point of view i'm

1070
00:41:57,510 --> 00:41:55,760
also uh

1071
00:41:59,990 --> 00:41:57,520
in the process of developing a new

1072
00:42:03,270 --> 00:42:00,000
theory about uh the role and the impact

1073
00:42:05,109 --> 00:42:03,280
of mining consciousness in nature

1074
00:42:06,230 --> 00:42:05,119
great would you want to tip your hand a

1075
00:42:08,470 --> 00:42:06,240
little bit and tell us what you're

1076
00:42:11,270 --> 00:42:08,480
thinking in general well the

1077
00:42:14,309 --> 00:42:11,280
uh i'm planning to present this uh this

1078
00:42:16,390 --> 00:42:14,319
theory in this special issue that will

1079
00:42:19,829 --> 00:42:16,400
be published next year in the

1080
00:42:23,829 --> 00:42:19,839
frontiers of in human neuroscience

1081
00:42:27,109 --> 00:42:23,839
and well basic ideas about that it's uh

1082
00:42:29,109 --> 00:42:27,119
mind consciousness are irreducible they

1083
00:42:30,950 --> 00:42:29,119
cannot be reduced to matter they are

1084
00:42:33,109 --> 00:42:30,960
fundamental uh

1085
00:42:35,750 --> 00:42:33,119
in the universe as much as

1086
00:42:36,790 --> 00:42:35,760
the fundamental forces of physics

1087
00:42:39,349 --> 00:42:36,800
um

1088
00:42:42,069 --> 00:42:39,359
and the uh you know the

1089
00:42:44,630 --> 00:42:42,079
so so they are as important as what we

1090
00:42:46,150 --> 00:42:44,640
call space time and also the uh the

1091
00:42:47,030 --> 00:42:46,160
physical world

1092
00:42:47,910 --> 00:42:47,040
and

1093
00:42:50,069 --> 00:42:47,920
so

1094
00:42:52,150 --> 00:42:50,079
what i'm planning to do is simply to

1095
00:42:54,790 --> 00:42:52,160
demonstrate that from

1096
00:42:56,950 --> 00:42:54,800
an empirical point of view so i i'm

1097
00:43:00,390 --> 00:42:56,960
presenting a series of empirical

1098
00:43:03,349 --> 00:43:00,400
evidence showing that

1099
00:43:05,829 --> 00:43:03,359
mental processes and events

1100
00:43:08,390 --> 00:43:05,839
exert a great influence

1101
00:43:10,829 --> 00:43:08,400
within the body the brain and body

1102
00:43:13,750 --> 00:43:10,839
but also outside of the physical

1103
00:43:15,270 --> 00:43:13,760
body uh beyond the confines of the brain

1104
00:43:17,829 --> 00:43:15,280
and the body

1105
00:43:18,470 --> 00:43:17,839
so in essence that's the uh the gist of

1106
00:43:23,510 --> 00:43:18,480
it

1107
00:43:25,430 --> 00:43:23,520
teaser for the for the upcoming article

1108
00:43:28,069 --> 00:43:25,440
and we'll certainly look for that you

1109
00:43:31,030 --> 00:43:28,079
know what the the good news is that when

1110
00:43:31,829 --> 00:43:31,040
i'm presenting these things um you know

1111
00:43:33,190 --> 00:43:31,839
to

1112
00:43:34,630 --> 00:43:33,200
uh

1113
00:43:36,390 --> 00:43:34,640
for instance can be department of

1114
00:43:38,230 --> 00:43:36,400
psychiatry or even to some

1115
00:43:40,550 --> 00:43:38,240
neuroscientist and

1116
00:43:42,630 --> 00:43:40,560
these days now they are more willing to

1117
00:43:44,069 --> 00:43:42,640
listen you know and to reflect about

1118
00:43:46,309 --> 00:43:44,079
these things and

1119
00:43:48,390 --> 00:43:46,319
like i said before 10 years ago this

1120
00:43:51,270 --> 00:43:48,400
would not have been possible at all so

1121
00:43:52,950 --> 00:43:51,280
it's a sign that things are starting to

1122
00:43:55,829 --> 00:43:52,960
change really

1123
00:43:57,990 --> 00:43:55,839
right that's very interesting to hear

1124
00:44:00,710 --> 00:43:58,000
from someone who's on the front line of

1125
00:44:02,790 --> 00:44:00,720
this work like you are i really value

1126
00:44:05,109 --> 00:44:02,800
that opinion and i think folks will will

1127
00:44:07,190 --> 00:44:05,119
take part in that so the book again is

1128
00:44:09,349 --> 00:44:07,200
brain wars the scientific battle over

1129
00:44:11,349 --> 00:44:09,359
the existence of the mind and the proof

1130
00:44:13,910 --> 00:44:11,359
that will change the way we live our

1131
00:44:15,750 --> 00:44:13,920
lives dr mario beauregard thank you

1132
00:44:17,430 --> 00:44:15,760
again so much for joining me today on

1133
00:44:20,550 --> 00:44:17,440
skeptico

1134
00:44:22,550 --> 00:44:20,560
thanks very much alex

1135
00:44:24,790 --> 00:44:22,560
thanks again to dr mario beauregard for

1136
00:44:26,790 --> 00:44:24,800
joining me today on skeptico a couple of

1137
00:44:28,230 --> 00:44:26,800
questions i'd tee up from this interview

1138
00:44:30,710 --> 00:44:28,240
the first would have to do with the

1139
00:44:32,870 --> 00:44:30,720
placebo effect i haven't really talked a

1140
00:44:35,190 --> 00:44:32,880
lot about the placebo effect on this

1141
00:44:38,230 --> 00:44:35,200
show but i think dr beauregard does a

1142
00:44:40,550 --> 00:44:38,240
nice job of showing how it too

1143
00:44:43,030 --> 00:44:40,560
adds to the mounting evidence against

1144
00:44:45,829 --> 00:44:43,040
scientific materialism so i'd be

1145
00:44:48,470 --> 00:44:45,839
interested to hear how you pull that

1146
00:44:50,470 --> 00:44:48,480
apart and how you process some of the

1147
00:44:52,950 --> 00:44:50,480
research that he's pointing to in that

1148
00:44:54,950 --> 00:44:52,960
area and the second question would be

1149
00:44:57,910 --> 00:44:54,960
returning to a topic we talk about

1150
00:45:00,710 --> 00:44:57,920
frequently and that is the paradigm

1151
00:45:03,190 --> 00:45:00,720
shift so dr beauregard is suggesting

1152
00:45:04,470 --> 00:45:03,200
that hey things really are moving in the

1153
00:45:07,030 --> 00:45:04,480
right direction

1154
00:45:09,910 --> 00:45:07,040
and that this science which seems pretty

1155
00:45:12,230 --> 00:45:09,920
self-evident to most of us is gaining

1156
00:45:15,230 --> 00:45:12,240
traction i'd like to think that's true

1157
00:45:17,750 --> 00:45:15,240
but i think embedded in that belief is a

1158
00:45:20,550 --> 00:45:17,760
misunderstanding of just how powerful

1159
00:45:22,630 --> 00:45:20,560
the forces that would resist that

1160
00:45:24,390 --> 00:45:22,640
really are and the fact that they

1161
00:45:26,950 --> 00:45:24,400
haven't really been challenged to a

1162
00:45:29,349 --> 00:45:26,960
great degree right now makes it hard to

1163
00:45:32,069 --> 00:45:29,359
estimate just how hard their pushback

1164
00:45:33,990 --> 00:45:32,079
might be anyways i'm tipping my hand as

1165
00:45:36,390 --> 00:45:34,000
to my take on that but i think it'd be

1166
00:45:38,710 --> 00:45:36,400
interesting to dredge that up and debate

1167
00:45:40,790 --> 00:45:38,720
that one more time and the place to do

1168
00:45:42,870 --> 00:45:40,800
that of course is either in the forum or

1169
00:45:47,190 --> 00:45:42,880
on the comment section of the website

1170
00:45:47,910 --> 00:45:47,200
the website address again is k e p t i k